over two years he is joining the fox report. good luck. thank you for joining us. it. we will see you tomorrow. john: and they're off. south dakota an early lead. in which state our people freest? >> new hampshire is looking especially coveted. john: laboratories of democracy. states can battle over smoking weed. >> should the federal government telling you what to put in your body? >> no. >> this is what democracy looks like. john: whether you can be forced to join a union. the battle over how much money you must give to government. >> indiana and delaware are rocketing. john: which strangles freedom?
rumble in the states. that's our show tonight. ♪ john: america has 50 states. it's also good because it creates competition. and one state does something stupid people can leave the state. take their talent and money with them. but with a due between 1995 and 2010? 43 million people move from one state to another. so would states were the winners and which were the losers? let's ask travis brown who tracked the movement for his book how money wops. and he also created a clever way to see who is moving where and why. d'arcy joins us. she runs a think tank at america's number two state in terms of gaining people and
wealth. travis, you first. explain this cool new thing the you created. >> thanks to the irs a contract everyone syncom move between states over the last 15 years. we see big losses from states like new york. john: new york, state. and i see people leaving for florida. california even. there are coming in from michigan and least. >> there is not the kind of in migration you would want to see, but for a state like florida you're seeing a massive amount of people and their income coming in. $86 billion. john: largo was the number one gainer. >> that's right. john: darcy, you run the goldwater institute. arizona is the number two state. and people come in from minnesota, my state, new york. you could say they get to arizona and florida just because it is warm.
>> you'd be wrong. john: they are moving for weather. >> the number one reason people move and that since the sparrow asks, find a job. that correlates with low taxes. climate makes up about 5 percent of people's decisions. a small quality of life factor. not the big factor everyone thinks it is. >> and we see that in the data. states without an income tax to doing very well, states like wyoming, states like washington state. all gaining people and then come john: so it's not just the weather. what are the highlights? one of the main things to learn? >> out of all 50 states there are nine men put a price of work is zero. that makes them very competitive compared to a basket of other states that have a high price on work. john: price of work. >> state income tax. nine income tax.
the big analysis for states like texas and gains of $2 billion last 15 years. those states like them gained 146 billion. the reverse, stays with the highest among personal income-tax rate lost. john: the top states, florida, arizona, texas, north carolina, nev., the biggest losers. texas, really? >> i think what i call the magic formula. and it is taxes on oe hand and get labor policy on the other which means to a business being free to hire and fire the people you want. what you see in an overlap, the most successful stacey will see both no income tax are very low taxes coupled with right to work laws. hand-in-hand, hands down those states will succeed every time. it is of some months the people
think there is no income-tax. that's when the best and enhance. >> so critically important. john: he noticed the states seem to be doubling down on both good and bad policies. >> that's right. you have states like minnesota that have been talking about a snowbird tax, raising marginal tax rates. you have those candidates not doing as well. john: governor dayton says these people are going to florida and arizona in the winter. but minnesota people. we should get a little penalty for that. i concede that thinking. >> of the disposable income was truly captive within is a cut and city, that my work. will we know about career mobility the day now more than
ever is that people can and do move and they do pursue those jobs and where their income is most welcome. john: the state keep raising the taxes that unit will get more money in the get less. they never learn. >> that should not be a surprise considering the past performance of 134 million taxpayers. john: one state that is moving in the right direction is oklahoma. does not done that well in the past, but now has lowered taxes several times. presto. people start to move to oklahoma. the speaker of the house there, okla., think of a dust bowl. >> you know, it's simple. in oklahoma we know that if you want more something you don't x it, you taxes less. you want less of something new tax of more. we are moving to reduce our state income tax rate. it's at five and 1/4 now. real looking to take it to 489.
every time we have done it in the past we have seen increased revenue and growth. trying to keep the momentum going. john: even then it usually clueless mainstream media seems to get this. time magazine had a headline. in the heartland, oklahoma, kansas, missouri, supply side is the yellow brick road. supply side is a laughers argument that if you lower taxes people come to you. >> when you look at what is happening in contrast to what is happening in washington d.c., it's pretty clear that if iran not going to be taking freedoms away from people we will try and expand freedom's and oklahoma. avesta to do that is to allow people to keep more of their hard work and money. we have to be competitive. our forefathers saw that the stage would be competitive. john: uc competition from kansas and missouri >> there's no question. when you have the 13 largest
economy in the world just south and taxes, you have to be competitive. always moving the kneele. frankly inside my friend, the speaker of the house says, we have to be about creating pockets of freedom around the country. if you look at how the federal government is continuing its going to be up to the states that will make the difference. reforming the country, it's going to happen in the 50 nge of fortune in the numbers. you can see that over time. there were bottoming out, losing people and then come. about 2005 that reversed. that is consistent with some of the tax cuts that they were passing in oklahoma city that time. john: i would like to point out that that did not happen until i got elected. >> i love what the speaker is doing. he understands some of the home does not have the beaches that
florida and california has. did not have the huge universities in a year and in places like boston and new york. a lot of the incumbency factors and other states don't have, but they can be competitive if the labor in taxes right, and they're going to. before you know it up, will be in the top five. john: uses celebrities are good leading indicator of. >> they are entrepreneurs. we see evidence from people like tiger woods and others that make them move all the time. john: you move from california to florida. in the players like lebron james and other players that and of moving to texas get the first announcement on their doorstep. think of what you can buy with the money you save. john: the houston rockets have pampas that remind players on many rolex watches and bentleys you could afford from the money you save in taxes. >> in many cases these athletes have an opportunity to learn more after taxes regardless of
whether they play another game and not. >> it is not live in maryland and more. >> and tyrone is the best paid athlete after taxes. even though he might not have gross pay equivalent to others in the nfl. john: he lives in texas, no income tax state. >> being a resident of tax it -- taxes are lower tax date means real value. john: you lower taxes several times. but when you go to zero like texas and florida? >> we actually had a proposal on apparel to do that last year because of some of the lobbying efforts we were not successful. again, what is most important is we keep moving the needle. john: when you have trouble running state government? >> you know, that argument could be made. have to be able to keep a commitment to core government services. there are a lot of states around the country that have proven the you can do without a state income tax. the mosregressive tax out there. again, if you want people to
have investment dollars in your state, it's like my mentor said, capitol will flow to a hostile environment. you have to keep it as open and free-market principles as you can. no, we believe we're doing that. john: thank you, speaker. darcy, tras. now, travis calcutions focus on taxes, money. there is more to freedom and that. it will cover that later tonight. my next guest says one state is hot. it's not florida. so which state? that's next. ♪ úúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúúú
♪ john: it is big, hot, cheap, and right. that is the title of a new book, which is about taxes. america can learn from the estranged genius of texas. erica wrote that book. what, texas is filled with genius is? >> it is. people think that is strange. i don't know why. john: i think it's strange. >> do you? the most cerebral states. john: of white is a big enough to match the demand right? >> it is a big state.
it's not. the idea that people move to the states for the weather is totally insane. it's out of the new york in the summer for half the year. cheap, low cost of living, the taxes. it's right. that's a double entendre meaning it's a right wing state heavily dominated by republicans. maybe that is changing, but also right in the sense of things working out pretty well. john: unemployment is lower than the national average. chief executive magazines, surveys ceos. they pd taxes as the best day to do business in. >> is the best day to do a lot of things including business, and a number of publications have thought that about the state. john: pushed back. paul kruger rights that taxes miracle is a mess. texas is one of the worst poverty rates. highest high-school dropout rate, last for percentage of people without insurance. >> there are some serious problems in the state. poverty is a huge issue for the state in the country, but there not new problems for texas. the have been that way for a while. or getting to a point where
critics in the state to look at us and say, you're not doing well enough yet. we are getting there. john: the bottom line is that people are free to vote with their fee. >> added to texas. john: mtly from california and illinois. you have gained almost $5 billion in wealth from people moving just from california. >> does the number registered. would have guessed it was bigger. john: that's all of the people their reported. probably some other money. lots of people move, as we said to, from california to texas. texas governor perry has been bragging about that in illinois recently. the members, a reference to this. >> three agencies and governments. to hours of education, and the -- what is the third one.
john: ticket of got rid of the arab culture and in -- that's another story. crte jobs. if you had to choose, i would choose the jobs rather than a list. john: the california governor's news a your state. he denies that people run from california to texas. >> is not going to look over these places of the make up the state. who would want to spend their summers in 110-degree heat and set some kind of fossil fuel air-conditioner. john: it's funny. he has to say fossil fuel their conditioner, like many of them are not. but lubbock.
110-degree heat. >> we actually have the nation's weak -- leading wind power state and a law that comes from lubboc but, you know, obviously the governor of california is showing some texas wire. maybe they -- john: in a defensive crouch. >> is to roll over the country. think it has been an issue for the country as a whole. the recessionary states, where not getting back to where we want to be. so if taxes is doing that more effectively, then of all for it. john: this program is critical of governor perry and texas for corporate welfare. some companies that paid big to move there. bank of america, home depot, samsung, t-mobile. >> well, i think it's pretty free-market, but in practice it's pretty pragmatic. you might even discover his pro employment or pro-business rather than strictly ideologically free-market cheering. so i think things like subsidies
command centers, of the spending to build up industries or attract particular companies has been going on for a while. misstates do that. we do also. john: and my favorite part that really illustrates how texas is different. your legislature, for this big state guy does not meet every year. every two years. >> every other year for 140 days. john: pennsylvania, for example, half the population, more legislators. they paid in ten times as much. >> pennsylvania has a really awesome government. they're doing great things there. john: taxes, pay only 7,000 per year. >> i think one of the new guys just realize that. to his shock and dismay when he got there. john: thank you. coming up,ore rumbles in the states. two stat legalized marijuana. will that earn the money for marijuana taurus? >> the competition between all of the new products and everything.
john: to use to work for abc news. before that w. cbs-tv. the move to the york for the job was told, i had to join a union. the american federation of tv and radio artists. what? i don't want to join a union. and not an artist. no one to pay dues, but i had to, was told. york is forced union state. about half the states are. the majority of workers in your area vote to form a union everyone must pay the union. so i did for 36 years, but no more. now i am at foxwoods is non-union. i think it's great that there is now the trend away from forced unionization.
indiana and michigan recently passed right to work laws which say workers cannot be forced to pay union dues. they joined 24 states that already had such laws. great? no, that's terrible says david maitland of the american worker project. the center for american progress. so why am i wrong? >> you're wrong for a couple of reasons. first, you could never be forced to join the union. you can be required to pay union dues to cover the cost of representing you and bargaining for your contract. the bigger and more important reason is that unions make the middle class. they help make the middle-class stronger. the unions you're really undercut the middle-class. john: where is the evidence thas stronger? henry ford double autoworkers' wages and shorten the work day years before the uaw even existed. >> well, i think the best
evidence, you can look at the u.s. over time. when unions or at their strongest 50, 60's and 70's, the middle class was at the strongest. as unions have declined in power over the past 30 years, the middle-class has significantly weakened. john: we have a chart looking at unemployment in america. goes up and down. and there was the lowest unemployment in the 20's before there were unions. >> unionization can be high when you have high unemployment, and vice versa. the key thing to know your is that what unions do is help give workers some basic bargaining power in the relationship so that workers can join together and negotiate with their boss on more relatively equal footing. that gives them the ability to get a larger pay -- paychecks and benefits, health care and retirement. john: that's great if i want to have this union bargain for me, but what if i think that they do a bad job? what if i can negotiate higher pay directly myself because i
work harder than the other guys in my union? when i have an incentive to work harder. >> well, if you don't like the union you can vote to reject their contract, but to even decertify the union, get rid of it. you can also work for a different employer. you have lots of choices. any worker and employer, for example, they have requirements. they often require you to wear a particular uniforms or they can monitor your keystrokes on a computer. when you work for an employer, there are obligations that come with that. if you happen to work for a unionized employers, one of those obligations is to pay for the cost of representation. john: says the law. the employer may not want that. the worker may not want it. what if the union negotiates stup work rules? w cbs races to work, the union and others were also sank amid can be done. you can't touch that tape machine. sometimes it took them five minutes to get out of the car to
issue something. it sucks the incentive out of people. >> look, unions like any other democratic organizations sometimes do things that people don't think are in the interest of society. as sometimes happens. that said, what unions do as a whole is the power to workers to negotiate on relatively equal footing with their employers which enables them to get a relatively fair bargain. without that we see that they get much lower wages and less benefits, what our economy needs at this moment is workers to have purchasing power to spend on goods and services that drive our economy. really, that is what has been happening for much of recent years. there's not enough purchasing power. workers are not earning enough money. john: unions raise wages for some people, others become unemployed. toyota paid $48 per hour, create jobs in america. gm is paying 703. they lost 30,000 jobs. help of u.s. air more because those companies don't grow.
>> no, actually. but the studies show is that unionization raises workers not just for units up for the broader middle-class. and as much broader effects throughout the economy. studies estimate -- john: but bad effects. states do better. >> no, they don't. the highest unemployment -- the highest unemployment in the country right now is a right to work state. the third highest unemployment rate is also right to work. fifth time it is also right to work. john: seven states have been poor for a long time. of the past ten years and plumbing and right to work states increased by more than 5%. in union states and fell. >> in the best teddy's committee study that really compares right to work that actually controls or other factors that are likely to lead to job growth show the right to work has no effect on employment. no, they found absolutely no effect on employment and
manufacturing employment, the kind of employment the right to work is supposed to help decrease after obama went right to work. it is not saying that right to work was a factor. it is just, larger global force year, and the reason that companies choose to locate in the state is based on the education levels of workers, based on the quality of infrastructure. goods and services to and from. also, demand for the product. that is really what is it the court here. that creates demand which is what we need new economy right now. john: thank you. we agree disagree. up next, personal freedom. out of the state's compare? that's next. ♪
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nanny state park. new york has lots of restrictions on freedom. forced unionization, rent controls, some o that as is new york city, but new york state is not so great either. in a new study by the market is centered, freedom in the 50 states ranks new york dead last. this year and made a video about the contest. >> every two years all 50 states convene to compete for the title of most 50 states. the winner will receive more residence, fewer burdensome rules, and fewer nanny state regulations. i'm wondering how new york will do. the dollar to good. john: sadly, an economist. there wrote the study. so well new york was the worst. what was the best? >> north dakota was the best actually followed by south dakota, tennessee, new hampshire , and oklahoma with idaho representative behind. john: in terms of personal freedom you have another ranking
which the winner was alaska, nevada, maine, new mexico, new hampshire. breakdown by economics. >> exactly. we talk about things like freedom from incarceration or rest from a victimless crimes command-and-control, education policy, marriage policy committee and travel freedoms. john: you're saying if they allow a marriage that's good. you're making value judgments. >> freedom is a moral concept. we can study it scientifically is see which states are more less free. john: and i don't see people wanting to move to south are enough to cover that much. >> but you know, what's actually interesting about this study is the shows that people flow with jowls. jobs follow freedom, economic freedom or regulatory freedom, but personal freedom. and so basically there's a connection. is there. john: some states have -- 18
states increased freedoms as the last ready. so that's not what you see when you watch the politicians and piles of regulation. >> it's all relative. i mean, what matters is places like new york, a lot of migration, a lot of migration out of new york. new york is still growing, but it is really actually growing at one of the slowest rates of all the states. john: one of the comparisons you guys make is comparing the burden of regulation. let's play more of your video. >> on through regulatory wall climb. indiana and delaware are rocketing up the wall. virginia reliability system in new jersey's abusive property rights are leaving them stock in molasses. i think california is going to fall. those liberal laws and the liability system is too much. john: labor laws and liability, you don't even mention of a crazy environmental laws in california that make power cost more. john: one of the things about
california i what don't they regulate. everything from their liability system been problematic to even authorizing rent control which only a few states do. a leftover from world war two. when you compare it to states like indiana where they're relatively free, and the as the number one state in terms of regulatory freedom. land-use planning is like an occupational licensing is pretty minimal. they have a great liability system. we have seen is that actually regulatory policy tracks the personal income growth. there is a real cost for california's regulations, and a real benefit for a state like indiana. john: what goes on in places like california? they have the coastline, also mother. it is beautiful. it's like you get comfortable and then you just get smog and the politicians get arrogant? >> well, all kinds of things are going on. it's a complicated story. what is amazing is given all the the pantages listed people is still running to get out of there in california is a
wonderful place. hardly any place better than san diego and my view in terms of the weather and the amenities. it is seeing over 4 percent of the population is keeping that state for neighboring states are more free including says that a personally free like nevada. >> in california is not at top destination for anyone anymore. that tells you something. when you have a lot of regulations, where reform it take a man kills jobs. people don't want to go there. >> of illinois and indiana for comparison, right next door. illinois even as one of the greatest cities in the country, chicago. people are fleeing. john: some states are bad for personal freedom but get in other areas. >> yes. john: up to cut his second overaland ranks sixth. john: great fiscal policy, but it is to make improvements in the personal freedom area. really i victimless crime arrest and incarceration rates. authorizes sobriety checkpoints, things like that which aren't so
great. and then there are some states that are kind of purple states like new hampshire, colorado, even georgia and missouri where they actually do well in both areas. so those of the places as he is being attracted to people in the future, as we see people desire in freedom and voting with their feet. john: thank you. this is a valuable study for anybody who is thinking of starting a new. some new state. coming up, speaking of personal freedoms. two states legalize lead. we went to one where we are told everyone is happy. >> to use the in angry person around here? everybody's happy.
to a few weeks ago thousand people gathered to celebrate the new law by smoking weed. showing a special correspondent, she wanted a cover the event. >> to the federal government be telling you what to put new body? >> no. none of. >> and not going to listen to what the government has to tell me. and going to smoke weed. >> the government has sold as a weakened but nobody in of the people a speaking in saying we will make these decisions. john: with his second with the federal government says no. this law takes precedence. the obama administration has raided more than 200 marijuana dispensaries. this seems odd given that politicians routinely it meant they used the drug. >> which of you are ready to a man having used marijuana in the past? >> yes. >> senator edward? >> yes. >> i did not like it. >> and held. frequently.
i was the point. >> he think he's a hypocrite? >> obama your hypocrite. john: people so long as the paraphernalia. >> we actually selling cloud patterns. you put your own product in there. you heated up just enough to combusted. it charges of your cellphone. john: high times magazine hosted the cannabis cup this gives an award to the most potent weed. >> is a competition between all of the new products and everythi. there is going to be a winner. john: there are lots of tourists from other states. >> from oklahoma because of this is pretty cool. john: and people smoked we right in front of the police. >> it's illegal to consume marijuana and public. this is clearly in public. john: he says that the nobody standing in front of people smoking in public. >> yes. it was funny because a spines of the law was basically written must donors, not lawyers. and that was lieutenant mary description of the. he did not put a provision in
there were people to smoke marijuana legally aside. so this year's festival was a different last year's fall the real celebrating the legalization. john: just as illegal. >> believe that up to an individual judgment you can jaywalk. i could arrest you, but i'm probably not going to because i have bigger things to worry about. the same thing. if you're smoking weed they're going to a tow little bristles on. john: to be clear, legal to possess up to 1 ounce of marijuana. john: well. did not know was that kind of show. that is something that looks like we. they lit up at 4:20 p.m. there is as big thing about 420. >> no one really knows exactly. might have been. john: april 20th. >> 420 is still honor code. if someone says to you, do you
for 20, what they're saying is do you put marijuana into your body and enjoy the wonderful euphoric feeling is that paula debate i know if you do perry is not my business, not interested, but that its code. ipod 20th there's a bi celebration at 420 to be the have the countdown. that's when, if you didn't get a contact i, you were an alien with no breathing apparatus. john: people think it's the code in the california penal code for marijuana busts. in fact it's not. but it refers to obstructing entry on public land. all it is is some california high-school kids would agree to meet at 4:20 p.m. as become this nationwide met. >> dollars. they're all wearing their marijuana clothing, little marijuana glasses. john: the video shows all these people being happy. people say marijuana is on mike alcohol. at that rally there was a shooting. >> we spent all day at the rally.
fortunately when we went tthe canada cup. we left the rally in? and people were streaming of the part because there's nothing worse than when someone horses are mellow my horrible shooting. an event like that creates instant paranoia and surges of adrenaline. people stormed out of the park. they're still looking for the suspects. john: it was some gang incident, they say. john: and their work, by the way, -- marijuana brings together many different people from all walks of life. your talking about 70 year-old source still holding on to the grateful dead dream. your talking about 21 year-old, i'm assuming there were 21. they looked quite young. they're experimenting with the for the first time. people from all walks of life. no one else was violent, have to say. very, very happy for the most part. john: you brought up the hypocrisy argument. this bugs me.
obama, the other presidents say they have smartweed, but they arrest people. president obama has continued to have raids in states where medical marijuana is illegal. 200 plus. they're still doing it. john: legal or hours, people are registering their plans. john: state legal, but the fed law does take priority. >> obama's said in 2008 when he ran he would use his administration as a tool for justice against aids or medical marijuana is illegal. he has done the exact opposite and as busted some many dispensaries, especially in northern california. if that is the hypocrisy, i don't know what is. john: the canvas guppy mentioned. was that? >> apparently for the first time this was a non medical marijuana growing and consuming competition where people were able to try different types of marijuana and then decide what tasted best, what made them feel blessed. and so the winner was in the mixed flowers category, but none
gross got cookies by private stock l.a. john: the name of some type of wheat. and what strikes me about this legalization movement, it illustrates, as politicians always do, how close they are about the duties of the free-market. washington has appointed a pop star. they have to, they say, to decide how will the pot come to market. someone who understands the aspects, harvesting, quality testing, pricing. don't they understand that if you legalize things it just happens? the ups delivers 300 packages a minute. the market just as this. >> and you will see. i think the more the marijuana is legalized it is going to be incredibly regulated because there is no facet of our lives of the government will regulate. now they're saying, well, this might actually be quite an industry that wean tap into. tax people and spend even more
money. john: they want to decide how many growers and stores there will be. markets were not -- the work that stuff out. >> they absolutely do. if you let the market decide it will be safer. you will have better product and you will have happier customers if that's possible. john: the politicians pro-government. the pods are has a 30 member team in washington. coming out on the rumble in the states, if you want to spread freedom is one state that might let you do that.
you realize that 49 million americans struggle with hunger? that's one out of every 6 americans. these people are around us every day. they're our friends, they're our coworkers, their kids go to school with our kids. sometimes we're not even aware that they're struggling. this problem is closer than you think, but so is the solution.
announcer: play a role in ending hunger. visit feedingamerica.org/hunger and find your local food bank. john: in. john: right after the founders signed this to our constitution, benjamin franklin said, i agree to this constitution because the general government is necessary. then he went on to say, this is likely to end and despotism as other forms of done before. it's creepy, but true. most governments go bad. freedom is not the natural state of things. so three cheers for state competition. maybe a rumble between the states will preserve liberty, limit the autocrats power to take our freedom. the best way to increase liberty would be to move to a small state and in get 20,000 other freedom lovers to move to the
state. then there would have enough votes to prevent the government from dominating their lives. so we stayed? well, it will need to be small so that 20,000 votes would make a difference. they held the vote and new hampshire run. already has lax gun laws. the freedom to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. and so far about 14,000 people have agreed to move. 1,000 a move already. of the 20,000, but they're getting about 30 new members per week. they call themselves the free state project. however, libertarian paradise. state and local taxes and increased. it is not a right to work state. zoning laws in some areas raise the price of housing. the freedom ranking, new hampshire fell from second place to fourth place. the three cities are fighting back. a few practice civil
disobedience. he named it freedom couch. he refused to move it. he spent three days in jail for that. other seven cited for violating open container los firearms possession of the same time. this video shows a bunch of the people smoking marijuana. the free state project is having get together called port fast. a libertarian mascot is the porcupine which sends a mine my own business. i won't bother you. if you entered on me i have spikes. it's a good model, its politicians in all 50 states saw people as individuals with prickly close who want to be left alone.
that's our show. i'm john stossel. see next week. >> excellent. >> we're celebrating the next 30 days. the dow briefly crossing 15,000 for the first time ever, up more than 14% this year alone. s & p 500 right behind it, closing above 1600 for the first time ever on friday. investors cheering a better than expected jobs report. the unemployment rate at the lowest level in four years, but still high historically. so wall street sure firing on all cylinders. but are you feeling it on main street? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttoner. this is "bulls & bears." the "bulls & bears" this week, our guests are here. welcome to everybody. jo